Transcript

VR Workforce Studio Singers:  Singing V-R Workforce Studio.

Malik Thornton: In high school I was homeless. I battled with being homeless, couch hopping from my friend’s houses, cousin’s houses.

 

Jake Hart:  Four, three, two, one. VR Workforce Studio, podcasting the sparks that ignite vocational rehabilitation through the inspiring stories of people with disabilities who have gone to work.

Flora Frazier:  Working in a field that I understand.

Jake Hart:  As well as the professionals who have helped them.

James Hall:  A job and a career, you got to look at how life-changing this is.

Jake Hart:  And the businesses who have filled their talent pipelines with workers that happen to have disabilities.

Debby Hopkins:  To help expand registered apprenticeship.

Jake Hart:  These are their stories.

Anonymous:  Because there’s such a great story to tell about people with disabilities.

Jake Hart:  Now, here are the hosts of the VR Workforce Studio, Rick Sizemore and Betsy Civilette.

Rick Sizemore:  Welcome to episode 132 of the VR Workforce Studio, VR and the band director.

Betsy Civilette:  Today’s episode is one of those moments where we just stop and say, “This is what VR is all about.” We’re thrilled to introduce you to an incredible young man whose journey through DARs services led him right back home to inspire the next generation.

Rick Sizemore:  That’s right, Betsy. Malik Thornton’s story is one of perseverance, purpose, and a passion for music that carried him from being a high school student to a college graduate, and now the band director at his own alma mater. He’s a 2025 DARS champion nominee, and once you hear his story, you’ll understand why.

Betsy Civilette:  Well, let’s welcome Malik Thornton to the podcast. Welcome, Malik. It’s a pleasure to have you with us.

Malik Thornton:  Thank you. It’s an honor and a pleasure being here. I’m happy to be selected to do this interview. Hi everyone.

Rick Sizemore:  Awesome. Well, Malik, tell us about your job, where you are today, and what you’re doing now.

Malik Thornton:  So yeah, so currently I work at Tunstall High School and Tunstall Middle School. I’m the band director at both of these schools. I teach grades 6th through 12th. Out of all of this, I direct all the ensembles and oversee all the ensembles at both schools. So whether it’s the marching band, concert bands, percussion ensembles, or indoor flag line, I either oversee them all or I direct them all. So mainly I direct all the marching bands, the concert bands, and pep bands and stuff like that, anything with a band title and the name. Stuff like the percussion ensemble and the indoor flag line, I just oversee as the head director, but I have individual directors that oversee those two organizations.

Rick Sizemore:  That is so cool. Every time you go to a sporting event or you go to a concert at one of these high schools and you see this incredible music that’s so well-orchestrated and led and it’s so awesome, just know that I have a friend who is a high school band director and I asked him once, I said, “What is your job really like?” He said, “Well, the first few days, just imagine standing in front of 30 car horns all blowing at the same time.” So my hats off to you for taking young people and helping them pull it all together and make beautiful music.

Malik Thornton:  Well, yeah, it is a lot. There’s a lot in it.

Betsy Civilette:  Yeah, that’s quite a few ensembles you named. That is fabulous. But Malik, let’s start at the beginning. Take us back to your time at Tunstall High School when you were a student and what were your dreams then and how did you get connected with DARS and what was your initial journey?

Malik Thornton:  So back when I was in high school, it wasn’t that long ago, but I was a music … I stayed in the band the whole time when I was there. I was in band from sixth grade all the way up through high school. But my high school life was a little bit hard, I would say. So had an IEP for my education part. I wasn’t reading or writing at the rate of my peers like I should have been. My study habits were a little bit poor, but I never let that label me in a sense. I never let that discourage me for what I could do. Also, in high school, I was homeless. I battled with being homeless, couch hopping from my friend’s houses, cousin’s houses, anywhere that I could find just basically a place to stay and sleep. But again, I never allowed that to discourage me in any sense.

I knew then that my goals always were to go to college, become a teacher. It was just always a question of which subject would I teach. And I chose music because that’s something that I’ve been doing since day one. But also I just had a love and a passion for music. I was singing in the choir at church. I was playing my instrument in the band. Music was my release. So I knew then that would, my goal is to teach and educate others to pursue this. How I met DARS was my special education teacher, Ms. Buchanan at the time, put me in contact with Ms. Fischer, and then the rest is history.

Betsy Civilette:  Well, that’s great. Well, we’ll talk with Cindy in a sec, but we understand that you continued working with DARS through college and beyond, but what were some of the biggest challenges you faced during those years and how did you push through that?

Malik Thornton:  Basically, being homeless, not knowing where my life was going to direct me. Whereas my peers in a sense, they had a home. Their assignments was just to come home every night, do their homework, and call it a day. My assignments was to find water for my house or make sure everybody got everything that they needed to get done. And then on top of that, maintain an AB honor roll and also maintain being drum major in the band when I was in high school. And then when I went on further to college, it got easier because at that point I had my own dorm. So housing wasn’t really a scare for me at that point. But when I did get to college, I did live my life more for me because I didn’t have so much worries as I did when I was a student in high school.

Rick Sizemore:  Wow. Well, we understand you were deeply involved on campus at Longwood University, choirs, ensembles, fraternity life. You were fully involved in college. How did DARS help you prepare for that and help you along the way to becoming the educator you are today?

Malik Thornton:  Yeah, so I would say with DARS, I never had to worry about any of my finances for paying for college or supplies that I needed. When I told Ms. Fisher, “This is what I want to do.” She was like, “Okay, I’m willing to help you in any shape, way, or form.” And she was the one that said, “Okay, this is what we can cover.” After I got my FASFA back and stuff, “This is how much DARS can chip in.” And then after that, this is the items. My first year moving in, I will say DARS helped me with not furnishing, but getting those first year need items for my dorm room, such as paper towels, toilet paper, washcloth, baths, helped me with supplies for my music needs. So books and stuff like that, they supplied first year school supplies, pencils, whatever I needed. DARS was always there. So again, that just opened up more of a path for me to enjoy college because I just didn’t have those stressors on top of learning.

Rick Sizemore:  Wow.

Betsy Civilette:  Well now you’re back at Tunstall Band director for both middle and high school. So what’s it like walking in the same halls you once walked as a student and now as a leader?

Malik Thornton:  I would say it’s very much like it’s an adjustment because like I said earlier, high school wasn’t that long ago for me, but now I get to see the behind the scenes of high school, be there for my students as my educators were there for me in some senses. I love being a role model. At my time at Longwood, like you said, I was heavily involved and my advocacy was always to be a change maker. I was associated with the change corps on campus, and so advocating for students of minorities or students with disabilities doing that, and then more so I just took that and brought it to Tunstall.

Betsy Civilette:  Malik, what does it mean to you to be nominated as a DARS champion and what would you say to other students out there who are just beginning their journey?

Malik Thornton:  So I would say for me to be nominated was such a great honor first of all. I’m always one to downplay a lot of situations in my life. That’s what my friends also say, because I’m just am not the person thinking like, “Oh, well, I deserve these things.” In a sense. Or people just don’t notice what I do. To be nominated for this award, it’s like, well, people see what I do and people know what I do, and it’s a great accomplishment in somebody’s eyes even if it’s not in mine. So first I just feel honored for it.

What describes a champion to me is just that person that perseveres. Never taking no for an answer, never letting other people’s doubts tell you what you’re going to be. Never being defined by another person. I have always stayed true to my path and that’s what a champion, in my opinion is, a person that stays true to their path, who always excels, who goes above and beyond, not just for themselves but for others. What I always told people and students, it’s always, always advocate for yourself first. Look at the bigger picture to get in contact with people because somebody’s out there that can help you. If I didn’t talk to Ms. Buchanan, my special education teacher, I don’t think I would be here today. Because again, she was the woman that put me in contact with Ms. Fisher. And then again, the rest is history. So always, always persevere, never give up. Being a champion is not always just winning battles, winning fights, but it’s also how can you make a situation better for yourself.

Rick Sizemore:  That’s amazing. I think about you looking for a home to go to, a place to stay and finding water. And you describe being a champion in such a powerful way with a context that many people have not had the opportunity to experience. Our hats are off to you, Malik. I have cold chills just listening to your story. Cindy Fisher, Malik’s counselor also joins us for the conversation today. Cindy, you worked with Malik for several years. What stood out to you about his journey that made you nominate him for the DARS Champion Award?

Cindy Fisher:  What made Malik’s journey stand out to me was his determination and his consistency throughout the entire voc rehab process. From the first time I met him in high school until now, he always shows up with a positive attitude and he is always willing to put in whatever work is needed. Now with his job, he motivates and creates networks with others around him. So from his school community to college to DARS, his resilience and mindset have really made a lasting impression on me. And so that’s absolutely why I think he should be recognized with a champion award.

Betsy Civilette:  Well, yes well deserved. And no question there. What comes to mind is just against all odds, you’ve succeeded Malik. But from your perspective as a counselor, what role did vocational rehabilitation play in helping Malik reach his goals?

Cindy Fisher:  After graduation? DARS assisted Malik with establishing long-term housing stability with rental deposits and housing necessities. But I would say overall, DARS did what was supposed to do. We helped ease the transition process from high school to college to the world of work so that Malik could do those things that he mentioned, like focus on school. And he was a super student. He made excellent grades. He was involved more than probably three other students combined in college activities and that sort of thing.

Rick Sizemore:  Well, Malik, your story is powerful. We’re honored to celebrate your achievements. Thank you for being with us today and for the incredible impact you’re making in the lives of your students.

Betsy Civilette:  And it sums it up greatly what vocational rehabilitation is all about. It’s empowering people to achieve their goals and give back to their community. So congratulations, Malik, you truly are a DARS champion.

Malik Thornton:  Well, thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And I thank you for having me.

Betsy Civilette:  Today, we have the pleasure of honoring a man who has shaped the direction of vocational rehabilitation across the country. Steve Wooderson, who is retiring after more than four decades of service, including nearly 15 years as CEO of CSAVR.

Rick Sizemore:  His leadership has been instrumental in lifting up the stories of vocational rehabilitation, championing innovation, and guiding this field into the future.

Betsy Civilette:  Steve, welcome. How are you feeling about this next chapter?

Steve Wooderson:  Well, first of all, thanks for the really kind words and how you guys are impacting the VR profession through your storytelling. I appreciate you calling this transition of chapter and not an epilogue, but it really is a bag of emotions. It’s exciting, it’s frightening, it’s comforting, it’s invigorating, but mostly joyful. And it is time to focus on family, on wellbeing, and I really do look forward to just a little bit different pace than I’ve been used to.

Rick Sizemore:  Yeah. When you look back at your tenure with CSAVR, what are some of the key milestones that stand out to you?

Steve Wooderson:  The first is ramping up what became the amendments to the Rehabilitation Act by way of the 2014 Workforce Innovation Opportunity Act, WIOA, the CSA membership, the leadership, the directors, the staff, doggone. They worked tirelessly to advocate for so many provisions. Many were ultimately included in the legislation. And something that may be somewhat opaque to some, for me I’m really proud of the efforts of our leadership and staff who made great strides to acknowledge the 100-year anniversary of the public program during my tenure through our Vision 2020 initiative. So not only did it bring national recognition to the program, but it really served as a time for us in the industry to be reminded of the progress made over the last hundred years and to celebrate those accomplishments.

Rick Sizemore:  What lessons have we learned in the field and what do you most want to communicate to our future leaders moving forward?

Steve Wooderson:  I didn’t fully appreciate early in my career the idea of nothing without us. And I began to really appreciate that more and more as I began serving individuals, nothing about us without us, and understanding what that really meant. Moving from service to policy development to public advocacy, to legislation, in order for us to be able to really fully do the work that we’re about our disability community must be fully engaged in all that we do. And then secondly, looking forward, developing and deploying critical thinking skills. This isn’t just about VR when I say that, that’s about us as human beings on this planet. Right? Being able to ponder and ask for and ask why. Find that factual root issue for problems and challenges, and then work towards solutions that address those root issues.

Betsy Civilette:  And you’ve always supported innovation and growth. So what excites you or concerns you about the road ahead for VR?

Steve Wooderson:  Let me first say I’m excited for the future of the program. I think that we’ve made incredible strides to address those issues that really came to light during the period of the pandemic. At the same time, there is a tremendous amount of noise in our environment right now, and often that can be a distraction from our efforts towards that continuous improvement. Well, I want to just kind of encourage us to first understand that doing good things for good reasons, that is that first step to innovation and growth. Short of that, we find ourselves falling into a bunker mentality, which oftentimes actually becomes a step back. I really believe growth comes from celebrating good. It inspires better. It launches creativity, and that opens a way to innovation. So the best way to prepare the way for the future is really simply doing good today.

Rick Sizemore:  You are our champion, our national leader for storytelling. And you’ve been with us in this podcast every step of the way. Why was storytelling so important to you in your message to the nation?

Steve Wooderson:  For us in this industry or really any industry, to really truly communicate that value proposition, and for us, that means being able to answer the question of why is VR so important? It could really be only told by those who have benefited from our services. It brings life to those data points, those compliance reviews, those performance measures, the return on investment, all that stuff. And it pulls into one simple personal experience that we all could understand and see through the eyes of those that we serve.

Rick Sizemore:  As you look back over four decades plus in this business, what one story, what moment, or memory from your career truly embodies vocational rehabilitation, has left that impression with you that you’ll carry into the next chapter of Steve Wooderson?

Steve Wooderson:  Next chapter, thank you. Rick, early in my time with CSAVR we partnered with the US Forest Service in Wisconsin, the regional office. The regional Forest Service office hosted reception celebration benchmarking the work had been done, and most importantly a number of graduates of the program who had gone on to become employed full time by the Forest Service. Unscripted, the emcee asked if any of the graduates had anything to say. Was not the program, but there was this one really courageous young man, and I wish I could remember his name, let’s say Andrew. Okay?

Andrew was dressed in a U.S. forest service green uniform, and he stood behind a kind of rickety single-legged podium, and he grabs either side of it, kind of like you hold onto the horns of a steer. And he started to rock back and forth. And I was only a couple of paces. I actually found myself kind of leaning, thinking I might have to catch him if fell back. Right? But Andrew, he threw his shoulders back, got his feet under him, he reached up, he took off his thick glasses and put them down on the podium, and he stood tall and he scanned the audience. And I knew that his VR counselor that served him was there, and he found himself making eye contact with her, Patti Johnson’s her name.

Betsy Civilette:  Okay.

Steve Wooderson:  Rick, Betsy, Andrew was the most articulate of all those suits that day. And one sentence he said.

Rick Sizemore:  Wow.

Steve Wooderson:  “Thank you, Miss Patti. You changed my life.”

Betsy Civilette:  Wow.

Rick Sizemore:  That sums it up. Sums it up so beautifully.

Steve Wooderson:  What VR is about, changing lives.

Rick Sizemore:  That is awesome. Well, Steve, from all of us in the VR community, thank you for your service, your insight, your belief in the power of people and progress as we look into the future, we do so standing on the shoulders of giants, and you, Steve Wooderson, are one of the tallest among them, thank you for joining us today.

Steve Wooderson:  Thank you. Thank you much.

Rick Sizemore:  For a deeper dive into Steve’s perspectives on the future of vocational rehabilitation, check out the full video interview now available at VRWorkforceStudio.com or on our YouTube channel at VR Workforce Studio. We’re offering you more ways to connect. Don’t miss what’s next.

Rick Sizemore: Well, welcome to the VR Workforce Studio. It is always a pleasure to welcome the entertaining and informative Heather Servais from our national clearinghouse. Hey, Heather.

Heather Servais:  Hey, Rick. Good morning.

Rick Sizemore:  What’s new in the clearinghouse?

Heather Servais:  We’ve got a lot of good stuff for you this month. I’ve got three resources to share with you. The first is a video. It’s a new material spotlight video from the National Clearinghouse. And this video features the ICAP implementation framework from Oregon VR, which is a disability innovation fund project. And what it does is it outlines a coordinated approach to support those individuals with disabilities in pursuing their career pathways. And this video is just very bite-sized, very short, but gives you some key takeaways that include the importance of early access to career coaching, strong cross-agency partnerships, and some of that emphasis on those industry recognized credentials. And even something that’s pretty unique about this is the structured communities of practice that really help foster that collaboration.

So in the show notes, you’ll have the link to the video, so you can watch the NCRTM Material Spotlight video on the ICAP implementation framework. And you’ll also have the actual document where you can read that full framework. So if you’re wanting to learn some of the insights and strategies for implementing these similar career pathway services in your own program organization, it’ll all be there for you in the show notes.

Rick Sizemore:  And we all know what a fan of the DIF grants you are.

Heather Servais:  Yeah, there’s just so much innovation coming out of these grants.

Rick Sizemore:  Great stuff going on, man. Great stuff.

Heather Servais:  We’re excited to share a lot more about those with you. The second resource that I have for you today is another video, love some video work. This video is a dyslexia simulation video. And for those of you that don’t-

Rick Sizemore:  Really?

Heather Servais:  Yes. And so, for those of you that don’t know, NCRTM has a wide variety of accessibility resources. And what we found is that a lot of folks benefit from having a better understanding of how disability can impact the user experience. So for a long time, we’ve had the screen reader simulation video. So we’ve made some other simulation videos for those folks who are designing content. It really can help offer a different perspective when you are designing materials or selecting tools, or even if you’re a VR counselor, supporting your clients. So this one might be helpful when you’re considering working with clients with disabilities. So this particular simulation video is a dyslexia simulation video, and it demonstrates how individuals with dyslexia may experience written content. Viewers will have a better understanding of these common challenges, like letter reversals, disappearing words, or sometimes waviness. And so while this is not a clinical replication, the simulation just emphasizes the importance of accessible digital content.

Rick Sizemore:  But it is experiential, and it does help people who have not gone through that in their own life have some appreciation for what’s happening in the lives of those people that they’re trying to serve.

Heather Servais:  Yes, absolutely. So we’re hopeful that this will shed some new light on what folks with dyslexia may experience and be helpful when you’re thinking through your materials and how you’re supporting your clients if you’re a VR counselor or any kind of service professional who works with people with disabilities. And then the final resource I have for you is actually for parents. So it’s a parent’s Guide to Competitive Integrated Employment, and this comes from another disability innovation fund project called Texas Beacons of Excellence. And this guide helps parents understand competitive integrated employment, also known as CIE, and the benefits over sheltered workshops. So it talks about how CIE offers better wages, different work hours, and just opportunities for youth and those with disabilities. It also provides information on how parents can support their children in making that transition from sheltered work into pursuing competitive integrated employment.

Rick Sizemore:  Absolutely. Every vocational rehabilitation counselor, family members, particularly parents, they all need to save the NCRTM link as a favorite on their desktop to keep it handy, because this resource among any resource out there gives you what you need to understand what’s going on, all the latest research, all the news and updates that people who are interested in disability employment need. So thank you for the work that you do, Heather, you and the entire team at the NCRTM.

Heather Servais:  Thank you so much.

Rick Sizemore:  Heather Servais directs RSA’s National Clearing House of Rehabilitation training materials, and joins us each month for The Clearinghouse Report. Links and resources from the NCRTM are included in the show notes at vrworkforcestudio.com.

Well, thank you for getting involved in today’s show. If you or someone you know has a disability and wants to get into the workforce, vocational rehabilitation may just be the answer to kickstart your career. Visit us at vrworkforcestudio.com to find links and resources as well as our call contact information. On behalf of my cohost Betsy Civilette, I’m Rick Sizemore inviting you to join us as we podcast the sparks that ignite vocational rehabilitation.

Jack Hart:  The VR Workforce Studio Podcast is owned and operated by Vocational Rehabilitation’s partners in podcasting. Audio content for the podcast is provided to VR Partners in podcasting by the Virginia Department for Aging and Rehabilitative Services. In exchange for promotional considerations.